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General Discussion / Re: Rick Santorum: The "Jesus Candidate"
« Last post by H. Rearden on March 01, 2015, 07:05:37 pm »
According to the bible Jesus said that he came not to bring peace but with a sword.
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General Discussion / Re: Elected official may have killed himself
« Last post by H. Rearden on March 01, 2015, 03:54:16 pm »
Reardon, none of that has anything to do with the principle of truth. I don't have to lie or cheat to drive on the road or use the post office. You are talking apples and carburetors again.  If you wish to justify something or anything, not my problem. I simply don't agree with you. I can live with that. :)

You asked me about my 'principles". I responded to YOUR question. Why did YOU bother to ask to question me about principles if YOU are not interested in discussing principles? ???
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General Discussion / Re: Elected official may have killed himself
« Last post by MamaLiberty on March 01, 2015, 12:46:38 pm »
Reardon, none of that has anything to do with the principle of truth. I don't have to lie or cheat to drive on the road or use the post office. You are talking apples and carburetors again.  If you wish to justify something or anything, not my problem. I simply don't agree with you. I can live with that. :)
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General Discussion / Re: Elected official may have killed himself
« Last post by H. Rearden on March 01, 2015, 06:30:51 am »
Good luck with that, Reardon.  Just one last question... if your "principles" are subject to your whim and convenience, just why should anyone trust you?

You have mischaracterized my position. Principles are not subject as far as I am concerned to a whim or convenience. My position is that there may be and sometimes are dire circumstances in which the moral thing to do may be to in that case abandon a principle. I stated two such situations. I do not believe that honesty is always the best policy because I would lie in order to save someone's life. I have learned not to say I would never do x, y, or z because I might do x, y, or z in a dire or life threatening situation. Would I have lied to an SS officer about knowing someone who was a Jew? Absolutely I would. We all who are liberty supporters abandon to a degree principle because unless you have not traveled on a road or highway paid for by stolen money by the state you have done something that could be seen as hypocritical or an abandonment of principle. When you fill your tank with gas you pay taxes on that fuel. So don't lecture me because I could also lecture you and others for not being 100% principled. Unless one lives in a shack in the woods they built by their own hands they have used state roads, got their mail from the state and mailed letters using the state ( yes I realize that the post office is supposed to be self funded based on the sale of postage and fees but it has a legal monopoly on first class mail) and paid at least non-direct taxes.
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General Discussion / Re: Elected official may have killed himself
« Last post by Bill on March 01, 2015, 06:08:03 am »
I simply wish this corrective process would catch on with more political psychopaths.
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General Discussion / Re: Elected official may have killed himself
« Last post by MamaLiberty on March 01, 2015, 05:40:58 am »
Good luck with that, Reardon.  Just one last question... if your "principles" are subject to your whim and convenience, just why should anyone trust you?
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General Discussion / Re: Elected official may have killed himself
« Last post by H. Rearden on February 28, 2015, 03:56:02 pm »
Well I think it is moral to lie in order to save someone's life. Suppose you had lived in National Socialist Germany

We could "what if" all day, of course. Has little or nothing to do with personal integrity here and now - and we're talking apples and carburetors anyway.  That kind of lie is probably only going to be possible in the movies, at best. You know any present day cops who would buy that one?

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No that kind of lie has happened not just in movies. It happened in National Socialist Germany.


 
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If I were lost in lets say the wilderness of Alaska and I discovered a cabin with food in it and nobody was in the cabin I would break into the cabin and eat the food in order to save my life.

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What has that to do with a lie? If I were in that situation, I'd leave a list of the things I used and my contact information so I could reimburse the owners. Why would you need to lie about it?



The topic was honesty not a lie per se. Yes I would also leave a note.
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Principles are general rules and should not be thought of as etched in stone in extreme circumstances that are a matter of life or death.

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Sorry, but you have that just backwards, far as I'm concerned. Principles ARE cast in stone. If they are not, they are merely situational ethics and easily set aside when not convenient. If an extreme situation came along, it would have to be evaluated in that light. I can't think of any situation that would make a manipulative, controlling lie justified.

I used to believe that principles were etched in stone but I no longer never say I would never do this or that because there may be a situation in which you would and perhaps for moral reasons violate a principle. Thus principles are not etched in stone because it is possible that one can not take in to account every situation they may be involved in. Principle are thus general rules that under extraordinary circumstance perhaps should be violated.
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General Discussion / Re: Elected official may have killed himself
« Last post by MamaLiberty on February 28, 2015, 01:23:58 pm »
Well I think it is moral to lie in order to save someone's life. Suppose you had lived in National Socialist Germany

We could "what if" all day, of course. Has little or nothing to do with personal integrity here and now - and we're talking apples and carburetors anyway.  That kind of lie is probably only going to be possible in the movies, at best. You know any present day cops who would buy that one?

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If I were lost in lets say the wilderness of Alaska and I discovered a cabin with food in it and nobody was in the cabin I would break into the cabin and eat the food in order to save my life.

What has that to do with a lie? If I were in that situation, I'd leave a list of the things I used and my contact information so I could reimburse the owners. Why would you need to lie about it?

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Principles are general rules and should not be thought of as etched in stone in extreme circumstances that are a matter of life or death.

Sorry, but you have that just backwards, far as I'm concerned. Principles ARE cast in stone. If they are not, they are merely situational ethics and easily set aside when not convenient. If an extreme situation came along, it would have to be evaluated in that light. I can't think of any situation that would make a manipulative, controlling lie justified.
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General Discussion / Re: Elected official may have killed himself
« Last post by H. Rearden on February 28, 2015, 12:52:26 pm »
Well you seem to see it as black or white. Are you always honest? Are there situations in which the morally right thing to do is to be dishonest as in lying?

I've always been pretty much "black or white" minded. A thing either is or it is not. What is, is. 

Lies, even lies of omission, (and often, even telling the truth!) are wrong when used to manipulate or control other people. I can't imagine any other kind of lie, but you may. I don't see what the point would be of any other kind. Why bother?  The most altruistic sounding excuse for a lie would STILL be manipulative.

Since I see the manipulation and control of others, by whatever means, as a primary evil there is little or no "gray" area possible. So, no, there is no moral justification for any lie to manipulate people, even - or especially - if we take it on ourselves to judge what is "for their own good." Who the hell gives us that authority?

I can't stop you from seeing any amount of gray you like, of course. :)

Well I think it is moral to lie in order to save someone's life. Suppose you had lived in National Socialist Germany and an SS officer showed you a photograph of someone you knew whom the SS was looking for in order to send them to one of the death camps. If I knew that person I would lie and say that I did not know them. Doing so could prevent the SS from finding that person. If I were lost in lets say the wilderness of Alaska and I discovered a cabin with food in it and nobody was in the cabin I would break into the cabin and eat the food in order to save my life. Principles are general rules and should not be thought of as etched in stone in extreme circumstances that are a matter of life or death.
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General Discussion / Re: Elected official may have killed himself
« Last post by MamaLiberty on February 28, 2015, 10:46:06 am »
Well you seem to see it as black or white. Are you always honest? Are there situations in which the morally right thing to do is to be dishonest as in lying?

I've always been pretty much "black or white" minded. A thing either is or it is not. What is, is. 

Lies, even lies of omission, (and often, even telling the truth!) are wrong when used to manipulate or control other people. I can't imagine any other kind of lie, but you may. I don't see what the point would be of any other kind. Why bother?  The most altruistic sounding excuse for a lie would STILL be manipulative.

Since I see the manipulation and control of others, by whatever means, as a primary evil there is little or no "gray" area possible. So, no, there is no moral justification for any lie to manipulate people, even - or especially - if we take it on ourselves to judge what is "for their own good." Who the hell gives us that authority?

I can't stop you from seeing any amount of gray you like, of course. :)
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